Guest post by Sean Williams
[Ed: I’ve been out in beautiful Eugene, Ore., for the last few days, speaking on measurement at the 2011 Oregon Governor’s Conference on Tourism.
Somehow, it didn’t seem right to cancel Tuesday’s #measurePR Twitter chat… when I’d be speaking on measurement.
So I asked my good friend and measurement guru Sean Williams to guest-moderate the chat.
What follows is his recap. Emphasis/ital are mine, not Sean’s; and the tweets have not been edited, so please roll with typos, etc., as you would on Twitter.]
The April 12 #measurePR was a spirited affair, featuring
55 minutes of near universal agreement that there’s too much crappy measurement out there, and
nearly a half-hour more time debating Ad Value Equivalency and
whether ROI can be anything other than a quantitative term.
[Ed: HALF AN HOUR on AVE?! Good grief!]
It was a rollicking chat, more than 250 tweets, around three questions:
- @CommAMMO Each of us has a personal Bete Noir — mine is “value of a Facebook fan. Q1: Why do people think 1 size fits all? #measurepr -12:07 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @CommAMMO Q2: ROI is a financial term. How does it apply to SocMed & mainstream PR? #measurepr -12:29 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @CommAMMO @kdpaine says HITS is How Idiots Track Success. What should AVE stand for? Q3 #measurepr -12:51 PM Apr 12th, 2011
The question of facile answers to complex questions centered on the Facebook fan question, which I’d lamented several times, most notably a month ago.
But the crowd still wanted blood.
Witness:
- @deannaboss: re Q1: igiving $ value to FB fans fits old style msmt, applying yesterday’s rules to today’s practices. #measurepr -12:21 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @alanchumley: value of a Facebook fan. Meaningless metric if we arbitrary assign loose value to it. If drives 2transcn grt. #measurepr -12:22 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @jenzings: Unless tie a result to a like purch/activity means 0. Not even permission to advertise, according 2 some studies. #measurePR -12:21 PM Apr 12th, 2011
Sometimes, you crack open a can of worms with your answers …
- @CommAMMO There surely are good reasons to build a FB community, even if only marketing-related. But Marketing and PR are not the same! #measurepr -12:20 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @mikedonatello: In fact, PR is an element of marketing, not a separate animal. #measurepr -12:28 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @kdpaine @mikedonatello not necessarily. PR is part of corp. reputation in many organizations – goals are very different #measurepr -12:28 PM Apr 12th, 2011
This led to a sidebar conversation about the difference between marketing and PR, and the various reasons why we argue about it.
Is marketing about selling stuff, or is that sales?
Are reputation, issues management and media relations part of a promotional effort?
- @mikedonatello PR falls under “Promotion” in the 4P’s, regardless of whether promo is narrowly def. as sales supprt or more broadly as rep mgmt. #measurepr -12:29 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @alanchumley Oh man! gauntlet thrown down. Publicity and PR in the same sentence. #measurepr Late 1800’s are calling they want Barnum & Bailey back. -12:29 PM Apr 12th, 2011
And that was just the first half-hour!
[Ed: Go, Alan, Go!]
On Q2 РROI (his self-proclaimed b̻te noire) @AlanChumley carried the water, and @Gnosisarts sloshed it around some, while others tossed in their cups too:
CommAMMO Q2: ROI is a financial term. How does it apply to SocMed & mainstream PR? #measurepr -12:29 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @jenzings A2: IMHO, Soc Med/Mnstream PR are both investments (I). Want to have a budget? Prove the R on the I. #MeasurePR -12:31 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @alanchumley ROI If it ain’t a workable (not conceptual) equation it ain’t ROI Misused often as an intermediate loose proxy metric. #measurepr -12:33 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @alanchumley ROI easy a pie if you’ve set meas’ objectives and chosen the right metrics methods. #measurepr. Can’t skip to the end and still calc. ROI -12:36 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @gnosisarts Q2 Yes but my personal view is ROI isn’t just quantitative. It does have a qualitative component #measurepr -12:49 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @alanchumley What in the heck is a qualitative ROI?! RT @GnosisArts: Q2 And, if ROI is solely quantitative, PR profs are in trouble! #measurepr -12:51 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @gnosisarts @CommAMMO @alanchumley If I create a SoMe promo that generates widespread buzz among followers in minutes, there is an ROI there #measurepr -12:55 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @alanchumley Not financial ROI. Valuable yes. RT @GnosisArts: create a SoMe promo that generates buzz w/ followers in minutes, that’s ROI #measurepr -12:57 PM Apr 12th, 2011
The debate, as it were, was over whether ROI can be anything but financial and quantitative. I still think the answer is NO – it’s a financial measure, well understood.
Q3 was everyone’s favorite whipping boy, Ad Value Equivalency.
Big shocker, right?
But the shock was @Gnosisarts playing AVE defense:
- @mikedonatello A3: As typically defined, AVE stands for nothing. It’s a metric based on a false premise (or a bunch of them). #measurepr -12:53 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @jenzings A3: it doesn’t–and shouldn’t–stand for anything. AVE is a nonsense metric that should be relegated to the graveyard. #MeasurePR -12:54 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @jenzings @mikedonatello I think that is the biggest challenge in PR and Marketing. Getting ppl 2 stop using AVE. #MeasurePR -12:58 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @gnosisarts There’s nothing illogical w/ the concept of AVE in itself. What’s so wrong with it? #dontthrowanything #measurepr -1:03 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @CommAMMO @gnosisarts Short version: AVE assumes all comms are equal to ads, research sez not. AVE expresses value as media placement only #measurepr -1:07 PM Apr 12th, 2011
- @CommAMMO @gnosisarts The base concept of AVE is the E – it requires us to bleive that perception of editorial and ad are equiv. 1/2 #measurepr -1:14 PM Apr 12th, 2011
And, here are the“What should AVE stand for?” replies:
- @dibbler46 – A Vapid Example.
- @mikedonatello – Appropriately Villified Equation?
- @kdpaine – assessment by voodoo economics
- @CommAMMO – aside from a scourge on humanity, an evil pseudo-metric… Absolutely Valueless Evasion…
A good time was had by all.
P.s., with the death of WTHashtag, our trusty if cumbersome transcript is out of the picture.
So here’s a PDF of the April 12 #measurePR Twitter stream, starting from the end and going backward, copy-pasted from Tweetchat.
[Ed: That means you have to start at the bottom and make your way up.]
Phooey, but better than nothing I suppose.
Worth slogging through it…
[Ed: Many thanks for hosting such a great chat, Sean!
Folks, Sean moderates #icchat on a regular basis, focusing on internal communications. The chat takes place monthly on the 3rd Thursday, beginning at 10 am ET.
So the next #icchat is on Thursday, April 21, at 10 am ET. You should join, it’s fun.]
Image: highstrungloner via Flickr, CC 2.0
Sean Williams is the owner of Communication AMMO, Inc. He helps leaders improve their communication skills, build strategic communication plans, strengthen internal communication capabilities and effectively measure the results. His clients include Avery Dennison, Kellogg’s, The Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, U.S. Endoscopy, Insurance.com and KeyBank. He also is an adjunct professor of Public Relations at Kent State University since 2009, where he teaches a new course on PR Metrics beginning in 2011.
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[…] Lessons Learned From the Traveling iPhone April 16th, 2011 TweetYou know how I told you I was out in Eugene, Ore., earlier this week? […]
@HowieSPM “Say I have a start up cooking spray that for grills blows away anything out there but has low exposure in the public. And Pam which everyone knows of even if it isn’t used. Now Food and Wine decides to do a BBQ issue in the summer and they have 1 million readers. The variable is the exposure for the start up will have immensely more impact and magnitude of they were featured than say Pam who everyone knows. The values will be different but the process is the same.”
Yes – but the problem that “PR” runs into is when trying to figure out the actual impact of the exposure. That’s why @commammo , @alanchumley , etc. (and I) get riled up when people try to equate it to advertising… because you can’t.
Sure I want you in the chats, Howie!
@HowieSPM Ha! You mean all aliens aren’t rich? :p
Quick comment. I am in the Ad Industry because I smell blood. If I can do the right thing I could care less if Omnicon has to fire half its work force because the fraud was exposed. I am a champion of the client/customer the brand not the Ad Industry. So didn’t want you to think my words meant I changed careers for easy money because I am one poor Alien right now! lol
OH MAN! This is like a gold mine for me. I seriously could challenge @nittygriddyblog here for length but instead will hit a few talking points based on some of the comments.
Marketing vs Sales: Marketing really is used when direct sales with people knocking on doors is too expense. Which is basically selling to consumers. B2B has marketing as part of their offerings but usually they make catalogs/collateral and set up trade shows. I was in B2B industrial sales for 14 years before changing to Advertising/Marketing for B2C. Some companies are hybrids. Pepsi has direct sales (or their distributors do) that call on restaurants, supermarkets etc but they can’t go door to door to sell you product.
Measurement. This is something to discuss because I am all about ROI. Marketing/Advertising is meant to sell. If something doesn’t sell you waste your money (in my opinion). Rarely is there an exception. Rolex can spend on branding to poor people who will never buy so that when a rich person shows the Rolex the poor person ‘gets it’. This is rare. Pepsi wastes money making cutesy commercials and then no one buys.
But as to the discussion on Measuring. Because part of this is where marketing is getting its feet wet by transitioning from pure impressions (guesses about how many people saw something) to now almost chatter/mentions. 20 years ago we had no internet so how did either industry measure anything? Now we have the internet and can comb through everything from tweets to articles online.
But isn’t every single company and situation different and valued differently (like a Facebook fan)? The only commonality I see if the Process. Each outcome will be completely different based on the inputs. But the equation should be fairly common with a few variables.
So using a foodie example. Say I have a start up cooking spray that for grills blows away anything out there but has low exposure in the public. And Pam which everyone knows of even if it isn’t used. Now Food and Wine decides to do a BBQ issue in the summer and they have 1 million readers. The variable is the exposure for the start up will have immensely more impact and magnitude of they were featured than say Pam who everyone knows. The values will be different but the process is the same.
No different from crisis management or basic corp comm. I think for each case there has to be process and equation commonality with some variables that often will be subjective. Something that will never change. The equation for valuing a stock has one key variable: Expected Future Growth Rate. And that is purely subjective which each analyst makes all using often the same information. Someone decided the IPod was going to be a bust someone else said homerun. Guess which analyst got a bonus?
My suggestion DONT COMPARE TO ADS! They are all jacked up its why I am in this industry because it is filled with so much BS and abuse you have no idea. If 50% of Ad Spend is wasted don’t you think the industry is going to lie, deceive, cheat, and commit fraud when it comes to measuring to ensure Brands don’t cut their spend?!!!!
@Shonali no you don’t want me in these chats! See what happens =P